Susy the Groomer Producer (01:05)
didn't mean to suck it all up. I get so enthusiastic though. I'm sorry.
Barbara (01:11)
So I totally forgive you. I was probably I mean, could have waved my finger at you and said, I wanna talk, but I didn't, you know, like I probably wanted to go take a nappy anyway. You know
Susy the Groomer Producer (01:29)Susy the Groomer Producer (00:14)
Hello Barbara. Hello, listeners. Welcome to episode 493 of the Groom Pod. We are here again talking grooming with you guys. And don't forget to watch us like a movie on YouTube because it's way more fun when you do that. Because we have neat graphics and you can see me make faces and you can see Barbara roll her eyes at me. It's great. It's way more entertaining to watch us on the
Barbara (00:35)
Ha ha ha.
Susy the Groomer Producer (00:36)
on the YouTube. On the YouTubes. I can't believe I just said that. my god.
Susy the Groomer Producer (00:42)
So I want to start this show out with a massive apology to my co-host and star of the show, the talent, the most beautiful Barbara Byrd, because I sucked up two whole shows with my babbling and did not give her a chance to say hardly anything, of which she just smiled and nodded and was so polite. And I'm just saying, Barbara, I'm sorry. I
Barbara (01:05)
Okay.
Ha ha.
Susy the Groomer Producer (01:32)
Well, to rectify this little problem. Right,
Barbara (01:33)
I just get tired from preparing for the show.
Barbara (01:36)
it is such an incredible adventure to be eighty freaking six years old. I mean, I just can't I can't believe I feel like I feel and I go through what I go through. It's just it it's just like you gotta let go of damn near everything.
Susy the Groomer Producer (01:58)
Ha ha
Susy the Groomer Producer (01:59)
ha
Barbara (02:00)
w without
Barbara (02:02)
really letting go of it all. You know what I'm saying?
Barbara (02:05)
it's just harder than hell for me to put material together. you know, I d I just like imagine it. It's like when I was at when I was in Tucson and I was kinda having my mini breakdown and I would sit there and I would imagine the packing that I needed to do.
Barbara (02:24)
I said, well first
Susy the Groomer Producer (02:24)
yes.
Barbara (02:25)
I should do this and I just did that every day I imagined. And I just sat there and didn't get anything done day after day after day, week, week, week. Finally they came to move me and everybody had to help me.
Susy the Groomer Producer (02:40)
Ha ha ha
Barbara (02:42)
And I you know, like, well
Barbara (02:46)
So now it's like kinda like the same thing. I sit around, I think I lay in bed in the morning and I think, I'm gonna write this outline. Yeah, right, you are. You know, and
Susy the Groomer Producer (02:58)
Ha ha ha ha.
Barbara (02:59)
I get out here and and then I start, you know, like checking my news and checking Facebook
Susy the Groomer Producer (03:07)
Playing a little games.
Barbara (03:10)
and reels
Barbara (03:12)
And it's really v funny and then I just don't get the the job done. So you actually, took me off the hook for one of those
Susy the Groomer Producer (03:21)
Well, I
Barbara (03:22)
so
Susy the Groomer Producer (03:23)
I think visualization is an important part of doing anything. So see, you've got that down pat. Now you just gotta move on to the next step. Well, we're gonna fix this by letting Barbara's classroom go first. And Barbara's classroom is the entire show today. So let's take a real quick break and knock those sponsors out. And then we're gonna come back with Barbara's classroom where we're gonna talk about botanicals.
Susy the Groomer Producer (04:50)
All right, Barbara, take us down the botanical journey.
Barbara (04:55)
Well, this is the beginning of my botanical journey and I'm gonna give y'all the the reference for the background because I know that for the past few years I've just kind of brushed over botanicals when we run into them and ingredient lists and things and I you know and they just sort of also rans and I
Barbara (05:23)
fail to recognize the growing utility of botanicals and cosmetics and it didn't really catch up to my to my mind until I started getting involved in with Korean beauty products and that how they worked for me. And Korea is the the global leader in
Barbara (05:52)
adapting botanicals into cosmetics, not the global leader of science necessarily because
Susy the Groomer Producer (06:02)
Yeah.
Barbara (06:03)
China leads the way by many thousands of studies in just studying botanical ingredients and it
Barbara (06:18)
botanicals and finding identifying their active components which is like the very first step of research but the truth is that China's government has placed a priority on relating the botanicals that are in
Barbara (06:44)
The core of Chinese medicine into modern dermatology as practiced in China, right? So they're they're busy kind of finding the active ingredients components of each of these things.
Barbara (07:03)
So that's medicinal. So their priority is medicinal. Korea is leads the way in cosmetic application of botanicals. And that's where we are concerned because we're we're concerned here with interpreted ingredients of products that contain botanicals. And I am
Barbara (07:32)
going to r review my own approach to doing that by becoming more acquainted with the common botanicals that we encounter in pet grooming and in our regular everyday lives. So I started studying the subject and what I realized
Barbara (08:01)
is that there's so much to learn.
Susy the Groomer Producer (08:06)
Ha ha ha.
Barbara (08:09)
and I've r I've developed a little slideshow which we will show for the sake of our viewers and I will red for the sake of our listeners and I
Susy the Groomer Producer (08:23)
All right.
Barbara (08:24)
will talk ad hoc anyway. Okay? So let's just
Barbara (08:32)
Dive into it.
Barbara (08:46)
so isn't that eye-catching, huh? yeah, it's very
Susy the Groomer Producer (08:50)
It's very pretty.
Barbara (08:52)
pretty. this the available slide art is getting very interesting.
Susy the Groomer Producer (09:01)
Yeah.
Barbara (09:03)
so this was it was interesting that I found this. And I'm calling this presentation a bird's eye view.
Barbara (09:12)
of botanicals in pet products. this is gonna become a series. Okay if I got that straight it's gonna become a series.
Susy the Groomer Producer (09:19)
Good.
Barbara (09:20)
So today is really an introduction into how serious science studies and creates
Barbara (09:29)
ingredients for cosmetics.
Barbara (09:34)
one of the first things that we have to appreciate is that a botanical is not automatically an active ingredient. So traditional use, historical use, is a starting pro point, but not proof of activity in a cosmetic. Laboratory activity is not the same as clinical benefit. So clinical benefit is
Barbara (10:02)
what happens in real life. Laboratory activity needs to be researched before you make the next step, which would be clinical exploration. But the other thing t that we need to keep in mind is that human evidence is not automatically canine evidence. And this is where our industry really gets
Barbara (10:30)
shortchanged because here in America there is very little government support for pet animal research.
Susy the Groomer Producer (10:47)
Is there any support in any other countries? Yes.
Barbara (10:51)
More so in Korea.
Susy the Groomer Producer (10:54)
Okay.
Barbara (10:55)
where they actually already have a lot of botanical usage, and where they're trying to make products for sale in other countries. the the fact is human evidence is not automatically canine evidence and an ingredient's presence in a list
Barbara (11:19)
does not ensure that there's any infe effective concentration. We can kind of guess a little by the position of the ingredient in a list, and mostly you find them really at the end of a list or towards the end of the list, just before
Barbara (11:48)
preservatives which are minuscule little amounts. So that's the truth. There are three categories of evidence. Demonstrated activity, which is a defined ingredient or standardized extract.
Barbara (12:11)
has credible evidence for a specific effect with the relevant formulations and conditions identified. That's pretty formal.
Barbara (12:24)
I don't think we see that very much. about the only pet ingredient
Barbara (12:33)
botanical that has that credible demonstrated activity for the species is colloidal oatmeal. So
Susy the Groomer Producer (12:46)
Right.
Barbara (12:47)
another category of evidence is promising but not established.
Barbara (12:54)
A laboratory or animal model results, preliminary human or canine studies, or evidence that has not yet been confirmed in the intended product. In order for science to be confirmed, science must be able to be replicated. So the first study that comes out about something is
Barbara (13:23)
Just hopeful. And it really isn't until someone else studies that same thing with a similar or improved methodology that science can verify that something is established, has an established effect. And then thirdly, we have traditional use or marketing claim.
Barbara (13:51)
That's what we see the most of. Marketing claims based on traditional use. Historical use are a plausible mechanism without adequate evidence that the specific product delivers the claimed effect.
Barbara (14:13)
So that's what we mostly see in pet products. What evidence do we actually need? We need first of all to identify which part of the plant, leaf, root, flower, or seed. it it has to be the same plant and variety of plant every time it's studied.
Barbara (14:39)
Or when it's used, it needs to be the same variety and part of the plant that was studied. Preparation, is it whole powder, water extract, oil extract, standardized extract, or a purified molecule? Dose, how much is present? And how much of the relative active components?
Barbara (15:08)
Component, that's my spelling error, component is present. Dose makes the poison or it makes the effectiveness. Delivery. Can it reach the intended site and does it remain there?
Barbara (15:29)
That's where shampoo ingredients fall short because very few botanicals can actually reach the intended site and remain there in a shampoo Pick it up and throw it out cleansing
Susy the Groomer Producer (15:50)
Ha ha.
Barbara (15:51)
solution with very limited
Barbara (15:56)
skin content or hair contact. So five, evidence. Was the effect demonstrated in the laboratory on human skin, on canine skin, or the finished product? They're again one of the very few botanicals that we see in
Barbara (16:23)
pet shampoos and pet conditioners and sprays is rarely has it been effectively demonstrated in a finished product. Oatmeal has been colloidal oatmeal. So a plant name alone does not answer these questions. Even two extracts from the same plant, my spelling,
Barbara (16:52)
May have different chemical compositions because of extraction methods, solvents, plant variety, growing conditions, and standardization of the extract. Got it? Boy, that's a lot.
Susy the Groomer Producer (17:07)
Got it.
Barbara (17:08)
That's that's a high bar. And what one of the things I ran into in studying some of these botanicals is that
Barbara (17:19)
Solvents are used that are often petroleum products. So we now have a call for green solvents.
Barbara (17:32)
call for meaning researchers are asking, let's have some green solvents so that we don't have to use these petroleum products as a means of extraction.
Barbara (17:51)
So Korean beauty really led the way for the botanical boom that we see now in America. we're not even
Barbara (18:05)
running side by side with them. We're just catching on to like this is botanicals are a thing. Mostly just seems as though botanicals are used just to make the label seem more green.
Barbara (18:32)
Y does that make sense, Susie? Just to make the
Susy the Groomer Producer (18:35)
Well it does be because
Susy the Groomer Producer (18:37)
we're easily swayed by things like that.
Barbara (18:40)
Yeah,
Barbara (18:40)
because we're easily swayed. So it what what the plant names on the on a label, what they do is it offsets the chemical names on a label. So it makes the product that you're looking at seem more natural because there's all this green shit, right?
Susy the Groomer Producer (19:06)
Right.
Barbara (19:06)
So that's
Barbara (19:07)
why that's why Hyponic has thirty five botanical extracts in it. Thirty five.
Susy the Groomer Producer (19:17)
That is a lot.
Barbara (19:18)
You count
Barbara (19:19)
They're hard to count. Maybe thirty-four. I could be off one, you know, but
Susy the Groomer Producer (19:24)
Ha ha ha.
Barbara (19:28)
so here are five well established Korean beauty botanicals, and you find these throughout K beauty, Centella Asiatica.
Barbara (19:43)
It's the most prevalent. It's also known as Sika. Got a cool. Sika is you find it on all Korean anti-inflammatory, like acne products. And you know what? Korean
Barbara (20:06)
Philosophy does not just they they have a whole different approach to cosmetics because they're very much into the everyday, year after year use of protective and helpful products to avoid and quickly squash.
Barbara (20:34)
eruptions, r redness, inflammation, discoloration, overpigmentation, and all of these kind of troublesome skin problems. Americans just wanna take the full fledged pimple face and fix it. Right right? Korean
Susy the Groomer Producer (21:01)
Right.
Barbara (21:02)
beauty wants
Barbara (21:03)
you to get at it in the first breakout, you know, or to use it from teenagehood on into adult life. the rationale for Centella Asiatica is that it is soothing, provides barrier support, and has been demonstrated to have healing ability to the skin. Next one
Barbara (21:28)
Camellia sinesis. Boy, it's hard to pronounce these things with dentures.
Susy the Groomer Producer (21:35)
Ha ha.
Barbara (21:36)
Camellia sinensis. Green tea. We've all heard of that. We've seen it in some of our stuff. And the rationale for green tea is that it's an antioxidant and an anti-inflammatory with results depending on the extract.
Barbara (21:57)
The concentration, the formulation, and the intended use. So not all green tea is the same. Yeah, a whole lot depends on how much is in there. You can't just have fairy dust quantity and expect medical results.
Barbara (22:21)
Artemisia species, also known as mugwort. That's a sort of rude name, isn't it? Mugwort. It sounds like something
Susy the Groomer Producer (22:29)
Never heard of it. Yes. Yes it is.
Barbara (22:34)
out of Harry Potter.
Susy the Groomer Producer (22:37)
Mm-hmm.
Barbara (22:40)
doesn't it?
Barbara (22:41)
Come on.
Susy the Groomer Producer (22:41)
Yep.
Barbara (22:42)
The rationale for mugwort is it's soothing and it offers general skin care. And you see it a lot in Korean cosmetics. The results also depend on species and preparation, and there is limited direct canine evidence. So there may be then a little canine evidence. Panax ginseng.
Barbara (23:10)
known as ginseng. Rationale, antioxidant, and skin conditioning. Research exists, but benefits cannot be generalized to every extract or product. Not every ginseng is the same. Panix ginseng is the one that has been tested and kind of proven helpful in K beauty.
Barbara (23:38)
Now here's a good one to pronounce.
Barbara (23:41)
Houtunia cordata. That's the best I can do. Sometimes it's best if you just like do it the the Trump way and just like roll it off your tongue and hope it lands.
Susy the Groomer Producer (23:55)
Hutuenia.
Barbara (23:57)
Houtunia? That's good. Houtunia. Hotunia cordata.
Susy the Groomer Producer (24:01)
Yeah, that's it. I'm gonna give hang on. I'm gonna give you a ding.
Barbara (24:06)
Heartleaf. Thank you.
Barbara (24:09)
The rash frationale
Susy the Groomer Producer (24:09)
Yes.
Barbara (24:11)
for heart heartleaf, which I like that name. Heartleaf is a is that's a warm fuzzy name. Heartleaf rationale, it's
Susy the Groomer Producer (24:20)
Absolutely.
Barbara (24:22)
been shown to have soothing effects. Really soothing 'cause I used three ooze.
Barbara (24:29)
soothing and anti-inflammatory
Susy the Groomer Producer (24:31)
Soon.
Barbara (24:33)
and it has some interesting preclinical research but there is a lack of any canine specific evidence. So there's your five kind of well-established most popular Korean beauty mc botanicals. Here is a big statement for you to swallow.
Barbara (25:00)
And it says oatmeal extract is not the same as colloidal oatmeal. So colloidal oatmeal has been studied up the yin yang and studied on our species dog
Barbara (25:16)
But it's important to know that oatmeal extract is not the same as colloidal oatmeal and I have possibly been erroneous in teaching that it's close. It's not even close, but it's also good. Oatmeal extract is a quote good thing, but it's not
Barbara (25:44)
as good as colloidal oatmeal. So
Susy the Groomer Producer (25:48)
Okay.
Barbara (25:48)
here's a comparison. Colloidal oatmeal is finely milled whole, whole oatmeal dispersed in a formulation. It's like ground ups till it's just nearly dust.
Barbara (26:04)
And then it's used in a formulation. It contains a mixture of oat constituents, including starches, proteins, lipids, and other components. Its composition depends on processing. Potential functions include skin protection activity, emolliency, soothing, water binding, and barrier.
Barbara (26:33)
Related effects. Okay, so let's read that again. The potential functions that have been studied include skin protection activity, emolliency, that would be smoothing and softening the skin and hair, soothing.
Barbara (26:59)
anti-itch. It's it has it has been established as effective at reducing itch, soothing, water binding, and barrier-related effects. Oatmeal extract is a material entered by extracting selected constituents from oats. Its composition depends on the starting material.
Barbara (27:28)
the extraction solvent, the processing, and the filtration. Different extracts may contain different proportions of oat constituents. So that's colloidal oatmeal is generally pretty similar from one brand of shampoo to another.
Barbara (27:56)
But oatmeal extract can be different from one product to another.
Barbara (28:09)
Contact time, how long must a botanical stay on the skin? There is no universal botanical contact time. A botanical does not become effective after a certain standard number of minutes. Three, five, ten, a hundred and twenty. No. There's no standard. There's no universal standard.
Barbara (28:36)
They can differ depending on contact time, depends on the attended effect, the active compounds, the concentration, vehicle and formulation, delivery to the target and target tissue, and the available evidence for the specific product. So
Barbara (29:07)
The whole matter of contact time is that rarely, rarely, does a botanical extract have any effective value in a brief contact rinse-off solution such as.
Barbara (29:33)
An ingredient in a shampoo. There again, the shampoo is engineered to lift and remove stuff, not to deposit stuff. So unless there is some ionic conversion like cationic, where there's like this electric coal connection that can't be dismissed.
Barbara (30:05)
most botanicals in shampoos just float down the drain. They're really
Susy the Groomer Producer (30:11)
Huh, yeah.
Barbara (30:13)
Yeah, they just do. And so so I I have been right in kind of pointing that out to y'all.
Barbara (31:40)
So here's six questions to ask in the botanical reality check. One, plant plant identity. Is the botanical identified by meaningful ingredient? Name. Two, material identity. Is it a powder, an extract, an oil, or a standardized preparation that's the same every single time?
Barbara (32:09)
Claim specificity number three. Does the claim identify a measurable effect in your dreams, groomers?
Susy the Groomer Producer (32:21)
Ha ha ha.
Barbara (32:25)
Four, relevant evidence. Was the same material tested in a comparable formulation?
Barbara (32:34)
was the the interesting, exciting test replicated. Exposure number five. Exposure is the concentration and contact time appropriate for the claimed effect? There again. What can you expect in a shampoo? Why do pet grooming manufacturers
Barbara (33:03)
Put everything in shampoos, finished product six. Is there evidence that the finished product delivers the benefit? Now we're gonna go back and talk to and talk to you again about number five exposure. Is the concentration and contact time appropriate for the claimed effect? You might wonder, you you might hear from me shortly that I
Barbara (33:33)
I reviewed and dug into the ingredients of the schmoop hair mist, satin hair mist.
Susy the Groomer Producer (33:44)
I like the name.
Barbara (33:47)
That's a leave-on conditioner for skin and hair. And it has skin benefits as well as hair benefits. And I was
Barbara (34:02)
really excited to see skin ingredients used in a leave-in after the bath product that you would use daily, weekly, every now and then, but hopefully on a regular basis on your dogs. Because not only would it make the coat
Barbara (34:31)
healthy and stay cleaner and and less tangly, but it will support the health of the skin. This is what is called skinification of hair products. Sinification is where skin becomes a factor in what is expected from the results.
Barbara (35:01)
And this shmoop stuff does that. So I'm celebrating that product, even though I had a couple of questions in there, which we'll get to when I review it, in the maybe the next podcast. And we will get also get into some other kind of
Barbara (35:27)
Common American supplements like rosemary, which is credited with hair growth, but doesn't have the scientific support to make that claim in a shampoo? I leave you with that question.
Barbara (35:56)
here's a take-home message. Now just to kind of condense it all, natural origin does not establish efficacy, effectiveness, or safety. Traditional use can inspire research, but does not replace it. Contact time.
Barbara (36:20)
Concentration and formulation determine whether laboratory promise translates into practical results. And evidence from human skin care must not be automatically transferred to canine rinse off products. Does that sum it up for you? It sums it up.
Susy the Groomer Producer (36:45)
It sums it up pretty dog on
Susy the Groomer Producer (36:46)
well.
Barbara (36:51)
there's my
Barbara (36:53)
my gorgeous infograph.
Susy the Groomer Producer (36:59)
That's pretty cool. Do you want to talk about it?
Barbara (37:04)
Not really.
Susy the Groomer Producer (37:05)
Okay, everyone, just look at the infograph. Read it for yourself.
Barbara (37:14)
Yeah.
Susy the Groomer Producer (37:15)
We have reached the end of the show, ladies and gentlemen.
Susy the Groomer Producer (37:17)
Thanks for being here. Thanks for supporting our sponsors. Thank you for donating on the website.
Barbara (37:22)
I know.
Susy the Groomer Producer (37:23)
Please donate on the website and join us on Patreon, either or or both, to help support the show.
Barbara (37:29)
Yeah, I'm gonna buy some schmoop.
Susy the Groomer Producer (37:31)
Yes, Barbara needs some schmoop. All right. Happy grooming, everyone. See you next time on the groom pod. Bye now.
Barbara (37:40)
We love you.