GroomPod 485 LEGS and grooming and Quats and Polyquats transcript
Susy (00:05)
Okay, well, welcome back to another episode of the Groom Pod. I am Susie the Groomer and as always I'm joined by my wonderful co-host, Barbara Bird. We've got an incredible
Barbara (00:13)
Yeah.
Susy (00:15)
Action packed show 485 for you today. Our first appointment, we're talking canine behavior through a whole new lens. Kim Brofe's legs model. If you've ever wondered why a dog behaves the way they do on your table, understand learning, environment, genetics, and self will completely change your approach to handling. And then Barbara is going to give us some chemistry in the tub. She's gonna talk about quats and polyquats and why they matter. So whether you're looking to level up
Susy (00:45)
your behavior knowledge or sharpen your product chemistry grab your scissors and settle in because we are going to have a great podcast and today we're brought to you by best shot pet has your grooming day become a battle against
Susy (01:02)
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Susy (01:32)
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Susy (01:57)
Let me tell you, Barbara, this editing software is doggone amazing. I'm serious. It is so cool. So all I have to do is push a bunch of levers in my little software thing, you know, click a bunch of buttons, and it does the basic grunt work all for me. Now I can edit the way I used to edit the voice.
Susy (02:21)
show only I can do it faster and with a lot more automation and it makes little video clips that we can put up on other you know areas like TikTok or threads or X
Barbara (02:35)
Ooh.
Susy (02:36)
or Instagram or I don't know it huh yeah
Barbara (02:38)
I'm very excited about that. Yeah. I'm so excited
Barbara (02:43)
about this little snippets thing.
Susy (02:47)
And it goes in and it finds exactly the ones that are the best and are most interesting or I don't know how it decides what to pick out, but it picks out the right stuff. It's pretty cool. And I'm loving it. And then the editing was really fun because it's different and new and I get to kind of
Susy (03:08)
Learn stuff and experiment and like check this out. I can just pop this logo on anytime I want. Boom, there's the logo.
Barbara (03:17)
Yeah.
Susy (03:18)
And boom, it's gone just as fast. Very cool. I'm liking it very much. I am dumping other softwares, but I've got to talk to you about one thing. We are paying to host almost 500 episodes on a hosting platform.
Susy (03:36)
YouTube is free. YouTube does not download to the podcast apps though. But the new software has a program that will download to the apps. So I'm trying to decide if I give up the hosting platform because it costs a lot of money every year. And I quite frankly, after we're dead, I'm not sure what's gonna go on with that. But
Susy (04:04)
If I switch everything over to YouTube, which I'm doing now, I'm actually putting up a YouTube video and a YouTube audio also. There is no limit to how much YouTube stuff you can put up. No limit at all. So I could actually download the entire catalog to YouTube on audio and dump the podcasting host.
Susy (04:28)
What do people think of that? What do you think of that? Is that the right thing to do? Is it the wrong thing to do? I don't know.
Barbara (04:35)
Well what what might be a negative consequence of that?
Susy (04:41)
The people who have subscribed to us on audio would have to change their feed. So they would still be able to get it on audio, but it would be a different link that would go up.
Barbara (04:54)
do something or they would or we would lose them. But if they're watching it they would be wanting to change it. And if they're not watching it, buck anyway.
Susy (05:12)
Barbara! Now I don't wanna do that. Well I will give them another option, but the changing over might be a little tricky. And I can always post an episode from my
Susy (05:26)
Backlog but from our like files. We have I've got, you know, off computer files. I can pull up an episode if someone wants to hear something in particular. So it's not like it's completely lost. Plus I would eventually put them all up on YouTube or on the on Spotify would be the other deal. This there's a connection between the editing software and Spotify. And I think as long as it's out there on something, I think it's searchable on everything.
Susy (05:56)
So anyway, that's what I'm pondering. I'm pondering going all YouTube and then Spotify instead and seeing how that works. And maybe not necessarily like I don't want to overwhelm everyone's feed by downloading at three different places and then it gets on your playlist. And that would be annoying. I don't want to do that. So I will do some investigation. And if anyone has any opinions on that, please put it on the discussion group or private message me and I'll look at it and we'll see.
Susy (06:28)
About maybe doing that. But I'm hoping, like, for instance, we have 6500 people on the Facebook group, so to that listen to the podcast on and off, not all at the same time.
Susy (06:39)
YouTube was like thirteen people were were watching us on YouTube. It's now over two hundred and fifty and that bump has has happened fairly recently. So I know that everybody's switching over to video. I get it. YouTube is the best place for that. I get that too. The more we can send over to YouTube, the potential for monetization is there for us as well. So that always helps. And speaking of monetization.
Susy (07:05)
I want to mention Patreon. I know we don't do a lot for the benefit, except for we do put the show out. And I think if you feel like the show is worth something, we would really appreciate it if you subscribed on Patreon for a monthly donation. Even if it's a couple bucks, like five bucks a month or two bucks a month, all of it helps us tremendously. And I don't push Patreon, I mention it every show, but really we should like have a Patreon drive.
Susy (07:35)
No, like this is the w the month we're gonna talk about Patreon really hard.
Barbara (07:37)
Yeah I agree.
Barbara (07:40)
Yeah, I agree. We're we are kind of amiss ourselves at not emphasizing the value importance of Patreon to the show because it's a a lifeblood kind of a thing and we sort of let it happen.
Barbara (08:07)
instead of really insisting or, you know, you know, yeah, I'm
Susy (08:13)
Yes. Well, it is expensive
Susy (08:17)
to like for the nuts and the bolts of the show, just to keep things up, to have the website so you can find us, to have the equipment, the new software, make it all sound pretty. That stuff is expensive. And I I could certainly monetize it in other ways, but I don't want to put more ads on. I don't think that's the way to go. I would like to monetize
Barbara (08:35)
Well.
Susy (08:36)
it by a little bit of donation help. So if you guys
Susy (08:40)
Would consider it, please yeah, take a look at Patreon and we'll also try to find some ways to reward you guys on Patreon. We're not very good about that. We could do something like a live off-topic show where you guys could interact with us and we could just sit and chat and maybe have a beverage together or smoke a joint or whatever people do these days. We could do it. We could do it together on live. That could be a benefit of a little bit higher tier on Patreon. These are things we talk about, but have a really difficult time implementing.
Susy (09:11)
So maybe some encouragement from the listeners would help with that as well. All right, you know, this time of year, Barbara, is the time I raise my prices. And so with the new van, it's a little more difficult than it has been in past years because I do not have any clue what my gas mileage is.
Susy (09:32)
I can only kind of guess and the prices aren't the same as they were two years ago, or you know, to try to get a big enough sample to tell exactly what I was paying before with the mileage on my tow vehicle and my generator added together. See, I can't separate those in the van. So now they're one item. Like my miles per gallon are generator and mileage put together.
Barbara (09:59)
Well,
Barbara (10:00)
but it is what it is, right?
Susy (10:03)
Yes, and I'm noticing that my bank accounts aren't as full as they were before. So I am raising at least five dollars on everybody across the board, and that should help me, a fair amount, I think. I mean maybe it should be ten dollars, but I don't want to do ten dollars all at once. Not this year.
Susy (10:21)
Because I would like to get a more accurate reading on what my business prices
Barbara (10:24)
Yeah.
Susy (10:24)
are. So what eight five dollars? Is that reasonable? Nobody's gonna balk at that, right?
Barbara (10:29)
I think five
Barbara (10:30)
dollars is reasonable and I think that that's a good I think that when we when we ask for Patreon, I think we oughta start at five dollars. You
Susy (10:42)
Okay.
Barbara (10:43)
know, I really I really think that we're worth it.
Susy (10:50)
I do too. You're
Barbara (10:51)
and you deserve a raise.
Susy (10:53)
Ha ha Yeah, that would be cool.
Barbara (10:57)
Ha ha ha.
Susy (10:58)
I would appreciate that. All right, well, how about it do you have anything you want to share about your life right now or any grooming stuff? You had mentioned that Artaro had said something. What what was that?
Barbara (11:11)
Yeah, I
Barbara (11:12)
just I just noticed wh while I was hanging out on my Gmail waiting for the link to for the broadcast, I noticed a notice from Artaro that they had changed the packaging and the the bottle of the Artaro
Susy (11:36)
the Mad X
Barbara (11:36)
Mad Max,
Barbara (11:37)
yeah. And it's it looks like amen, you know, like for forget the the little can of stuff that breaks the nozzle all the time. they've got a a handheld sprayer in there and it looks very substantial and ergonomic and they say,
Barbara (12:05)
You spoke and we heard you. I like that. I like that. makes me want to buy a bottle, you know, except I don't
Susy (12:13)
Ha ha.
Barbara (12:14)
have money, so I wish they'd send me one and then I I could evaluate it. But anyway, it it's
Susy (12:20)
Very cool. Yeah, so
Barbara (12:23)
a new thing.
Susy (12:24)
People break those off a lot by just dropping them on the floor and the little sprayer nozzle cap just busts that nozzle right off. If you do that, there is a solution. You don't have to throw it away. You may be shocked if you do this, but you can do it. So the little nozzle that comes out, you can.
Susy (12:46)
Depress that and you can spray the juice into a spray bottle yourself and that will save your product. But Barbara, what's the surprise when you do that?
Barbara (12:56)
That you don't have very much product in those aerosol containers because there has to be a whole lot of air for the propellant that pushes the mist out of the the bottle. So, you know, it's very disappointing when you empty an aerosol can into a bottle. and
Barbara (13:27)
you know, like th the time has come. And not only that, it's not planet friendly. Aerosols are not planet friendly and we're much more conscious of that these days. And I'm just like
Susy (13:44)
Isn't that the truth?
Barbara (13:45)
real super happy to find them with a nice dirty looking it looks like a it looks twice the size of
Barbara (13:56)
the old old tin bottle. Now it's gonna be heavier in your hands, you know, the lightness of the aerosol is because it's our air
Susy (14:10)
Very true. Okay.
Susy (14:13)
Did you hear that they're canceling the Brevera?
Barbara (14:17)
No.
Susy (14:18)
Yeah, gone. Not making it anymore. They have a replacement. A new five and one, they're calling the Brevera two.
Susy (14:27)
And I guess it's a little bit bettered. I got to see it at Cascades Groom Cascade Grooming Supplies when I was there the other day. And I got to have my hands on it. And it looks a little bit different. It doesn't fit in your hands quite the same. The on off switch is in a different spot. And also while I was there, Andes has come out with another five and one. The Andes five in one looks very much now I have no proof for this.
Susy (14:54)
Looks very much like the ones on Timu. I mean, the buttons are in the same place, the shape of the body's in the same. I I
Susy (15:04)
I'm seeing a similarity between those that I think this is like one of those cheaper built knockoffs, but I don't know that for sure. So, you know, keep that in mind. I'm just shooting my mouth off here right now. but the Brevera is it seemed a little heavier. It's supposed to be, I think maybe I don't know. There's supposed to be some benefits on it. For some reason I cannot for the life of me remember what the differences are right now, but of course I chose to bring it up. So there you go. No more Brevera.
Barbara (15:32)
Well, I am hm I'm interested
Susy (15:37)
Yeah.
Barbara (15:37)
in hearing about that. You know, the bravura was my God, I got a lot of use out of that clipper. I have two of left with me. I got a silver and a red. And I got them so that I would always have the bur I just loved the
Barbara (16:00)
slightly curved shape of the brevrier. I really felt that was very ergonomic for my hand. And
Susy (16:08)
So the
Susy (16:08)
shape is the shape is still pretty good. I'm gonna hold a picture of it to my camera so you can see a little bit of what it looks like. There it is.
Barbara (16:18)
Yeah, this when it's got a waistline. But does it have a little bit
Susy (16:21)
Yes it does. Ha ha it has a waistline. Yep.
Barbara (16:25)
but it looks more straighter.
Susy (16:28)
Yes, I don't think it's as curved.
Barbara (16:30)
Yeah,
Barbara (16:31)
it's that curvedness that I liked.
Susy (16:35)
The benefit is it's got 240 minutes of charge time. So it's increased charge time. I think it comes with a stand or possibly a cord that you can use. I cannot remember for sure.
Barbara (16:47)
Or I'll tell you that
Barbara (16:50)
I had I had a a moment with my bravera and I was Jody was helping me, my goodness, helping me.
Susy (17:02)
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Barbara (17:06)
His idea of helping me is to hug the dog and talk and sing to it while I attempt to do my work.
Barbara (17:17)
And
Susy (17:19)
Not helpful, huh? Little bit.
Barbara (17:21)
It's not always it
Barbara (17:24)
well, we get it done, but I have s such an attitude about that,
Susy (17:29)
the
Susy (17:30)
Andes one, said
Barbara (17:31)
Yeah, it's got a waistline too.
Susy (17:33)
Yeah, and it's it's fifty bucks cheaper.
Barbara (17:36)
And it's very
Barbara (17:37)
and it's got a a good paint job there. Yeah,
Susy (17:41)
Yeah, woo, 'cause that makes it clip better.
Barbara (17:44)
but anyway, I was trying to shave the paws because they're Madden and he's holding the dog and
Barbara (17:55)
wooing it with his voice. And all of a sudden I had no power in my Brewer.
Barbara (18:05)
No power like dead. And I was able to dig in my thing and find the cord.
Barbara (18:14)
in the stand, but then I remembered that you can plug the cord right into the bottom of the river and keep on keeping on and that's exactly what I did. And I just I hope they haven't lost that feature because
Susy (18:30)
No, I think that feature's still there.
Barbara (18:32)
as boy
Barbara (18:34)
Did that ever save the moment because I would have had to wait for another day, another week for him to get ready to have the time to help me. And because I just can't my little fourteen year old Maltese, they just like, they're done with grooming. They're just They're done.
Susy (18:55)
I know. It happens as they age, that's for sure. Hey, what a great
Susy (19:00)
segue into our first our first topic, our first appointment, which is about behavior
Barbara (19:04)
All right, let's hear it.
Susy (19:06)
topic. Well, let's hear a few ads from our sponsors before we do, and then we will head right to our first appointment, which is all about legs. Yay!
Susy (19:18)
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Susy (19:48)
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Susy (19:58)
Alright.
Susy (19:59)
Who is Kim Brophy? Well, she is a really cool applied ethologist, which means she studies dog behavior and animal behavior. She's a certified dog behavior consultant and the author of Meet Your Dog. She's been working in the canine behavior field for over 25 years, and she's the founder of the Family Dog Mediation Movement. And I am going through the Family Dog Mediation course right now. I've been doing it for a while. It's very
Susy (20:29)
technical, it's really interesting and I know Ashley Hanvey is a family dog mediator and there's not a whole lot of them, but I'm gonna be one eventually when I finish
Susy (20:39)
That course. instead of just focusing on traditional obedience training, Kim works using applied ethology to help us understand the whole dog through science, animal welfare, and compassion. her framework is the legs framework. And at its core, the legs framework is a four-part lens for understanding dog behavior. And it stands for learning environment.
Susy (21:05)
genetics and self. And I think this is actually more applied to
Susy (21:10)
Anybody like you can even apply this stuff to people. It's so generic. you know, what makes this is what makes up yourself, what makes up who you are as you go through your life or as the dog goes through life. these elements are all kind of supported together. And if your dog is struggling on the table, Kim Brophy's model teaches us to look at which leg is out of balance and figure out why instead of just labeling the dog as bad or stubborn. And I never actually want to call a dog bad.
Susy (21:38)
That's
Susy (21:38)
on my grooming table. It's more like they're having a difficult time with what we're trying to do, whether it's because they don't understand it, or it could be actually learning, which is the L of legs. Learning is their experiences and their education. And what it means is all of the things that have gone into that dog's life before it's gotten to you.
Susy (22:00)
will affect the way the process goes. Like for instance, if they had a if they've gotten quicked in the past, maybe even multiple times, they'll have a conditioned emotional response that's like kind of pre-built into them that's associates nail trims with pain. And the fear is learned protection, not a deliberately bad behavior. We see that often though, right? The dog's been quicked so many times
Susy (22:30)
you go to pick up the foot and they just like wig out.
Barbara (22:34)
Well, and sometimes i all it takes is like one mistake and you're you're in trouble. You know, like I'll never forget that. You helped me.
Susy (22:44)
It's so true. It's so true. But yes. You wanna do
Susy (22:55)
Yes. So it's learned helplessness versus cooperation is really what's going on there. They figure
Susy (23:04)
They're gonna do what it takes to keep them safe. So like if thrashing and fighting and wrestling made the last groomer stop, then that's what that dog is gonna go to. That's like the previous default. It's gonna start thrashing and fighting with you. And
Susy (23:22)
In other words, if it worked for them, they're gonna try it for you. And what we need to do is reshape the way they are learning on the grooming table through desensitization and positive reinforcement. And there's lots of parts of the grooming experience that are scary and can potentially be uncomfortable. And so when the dogs come to us and they have a predisposed feeling that this is gonna be an awful experience, we should do everything.
Susy (23:52)
We possibly can to change their opinion. And forcing them through the grooming is just gonna teach them further that grooming is a horrible thing. The second part of legs is the E. is environment or the external world and the sensory load.
Susy (24:10)
And what that applies to is what's going on around the animal while you're working on them. Salons are high stress areas. There's dryers, slippery tubs, chemical smells, barking dogs, high tables, all kinds of stuff that they're just not really used to in their own home environment. And it's very it's like a
Susy (24:32)
It's aggressive. We have aggressive noise. We have aggressive smells. There's dogs. There's tables. There's stuff. There's things. There's people. We're doing things to them. And it can cause a definite overload. things you can do to make it a little bit better for them will make it the experience less stressful for everybody involved. And that's the dogs don't wanna be bad.
Susy (24:56)
They just are afraid. So put some mats on your table and in your tub. That'll make it easier for them to stand. Reduce the noises, use happy hoodies, have one-on-one appointments if you're having a dog that's having a difficult time. So you can shift their behavior baseline so they can learn a new way to be. And that's one way we can improve going forward with these guys. So the fix the environment before.
Susy (25:26)
Before trying to fix the dog. So when the dog's on your table and you can see that they're distracted, they're looking at everything around them. Maybe take into account what they're looking at and see if we can't make it a little better for them.
Barbara (25:42)
I think the drying process is something to where you need to address that because some dogs r really are over stressed from the noise of the high velocity dryers and there's nothing you can do except not dry them that way. And so I think it's good to have
Barbara (26:09)
You know, I I love the the brush the handheld brush dryers and the you know, like the options that we have where we can do especially heads and faces without the blowing noise and I think it's just so rude when groomers try to when groom
Barbara (26:39)
Well, I can do that too when groomers. My little little
Susy (26:44)
See that? See that?
Barbara (26:47)
watching it.
Susy (26:47)
You're really
Susy (26:48)
hitting on something though with the drying process. That is
Barbara (26:51)
Yeah.
Susy (26:51)
one of the most aggressive noises for sure and
Barbara (26:55)
I know, we tend to have one protocol fits all. You know, and this is the way that we do it, and we don't have time to mess around with your little you know, fear responses, just get over it and we'll get through this fast. But no, sometimes you know, like I've gotten now with my dogs.
Barbara (27:21)
now that we're not in the salon, where I just let their faces air dry and then I brush them out like sometimes even the next day because they're just freaking out and it's not bad behavior, it's stress behavior and fear behavior and you gotta take their word for it.
Barbara (27:47)
And it's ugly, you know, and drying is is a it's a very intrusive thing that we do to them.
Susy (27:57)
I
Susy (27:57)
l I love the ability that I have to slow down.
Susy (28:02)
And charging hourly helps you be able to slow down a little bit. I mean, we all have busy lives, everybody's got somewhere to go at the end of the day. But if you just take a little bit more time and try to do the detective work to figure out what exactly in the environment is adding to this poor dog's stress about the process and see if we can't make things easier because anytime it's easier for the dog, by golly, it's gonna be easier for us to do our job. And you
Susy (28:32)
You mentioned about individuals and I do think taking the individual's opinion into account is a huge part of this. Not every dog reacts the same way because of the learning that they've had in the past, the experiences they've had when they've been in the grooming shop.
Barbara (28:47)
I think it was a doodle, a something doodle, that had been eighty sixed from three grooming shops. It was all about the drying. You know,
Susy (29:01)
Right.
Barbara (29:02)
I I just reworked that dog about the drying. I just I just like started from from scratch like it was a little puppy.
Barbara (29:15)
and just you know like reworked the whole thing and the dog changed. once the dog understood that I was taking i its feelings into consideration or its responses i into consideration it that that mellowed it out a whole lot and then it would only
Barbara (29:40)
I mean it would bark and and like bite at at the dryer and at you. they just couldn't stand it in these other places. And I I just didn't dry the head like that. I started there, you know, and I just like
Barbara (30:00)
started really slowly and I really changed that dog just through my attentiveness to its stress factors.
Susy (30:11)
It's fun when you get a dog that has moved away and comes back and you can kind of read what the dog tells you if you can about what happened when it was gone. Because I have some folks that moved to Arizona, not Arizona where we know people, but like Boonies, Arizona. And they were back visiting their kid and they brought the dog and they're like, can you please cut the dog? And of course I found a spot for them because they are twenty plus year clients. And when I got to the dog
Susy (30:42)
I put him on the table after the bath and he wigged out and I was like, I know what happened. They were using the cone nozzle on the dryer. Took about five minutes, the dog realized I don't use the cone nozzle and he settled down.
Susy (30:56)
The other thing is they said nobody can do his face. And it's because I have taught that dog to put its head in my hand and hold still and I can do its face. And I'm sure somebody tried to grab its whiskers and she he hates that. And so he probably fought and fought and fought. And that was the end of that because it had this memory of that particular shot. But when he came back to me, I opened my hand, he put his head right in there. I scissored up his nose. They were
Barbara (31:22)
shit.
Susy (31:23)
so happy. they were happy. So I wrote out a little instruction.
Susy (31:26)
Please don't hold this dog's beard. Just put your hand out and he'll put his head in your hand and then scissor away and he'll be fine. So hopefully that'll get on to his next people. So the let's talk about the G part. The G is the genetics.
Susy (31:41)
And that's such an important component. And sometimes we forget what the genetics of the dog is. You know, it means hardwired instincts in what they choose to do and how they interact with the world. You know, their body structure, their breeding, their heritage, their skin and coat is all hardwired in from years and years and years of natural selection and breeding selection. Like, for instance, herding breeds are ultra sensitive to.
Susy (32:11)
rear limb and foot handling and are easy overstimulated by tools. And terriers, they have a high arousal threshold. These are just general suggestions from AI. So every different breed, like terriers, they're gonna want to wrestle and fight a little bit.
Susy (32:30)
little companion dogs, they may cringe in the corner. They all have different built-in jobs that we put in them way in the beginning and it's going to affect the way they act in throughout their life. You can't expect a dog that usually has a job to just sit in an apartment. It's just not fair. So you gotta think a little bit about genetics and stop going against the genetics of the dog. If you're working on a terrier, it's going to react differently than a golden retriever will on the table. That golden retriever is going to become a pan
Susy (33:00)
Cake, he's gonna lay down and it's gonna be hard to do his belly. The terrier is gonna stand up on two legs when you try to do its head. So these are just differences in the breeding. And that stuff, even though it's been years and years and years since the Westie's been on the farm, those hardwired genetics are still in there and they actually affect the way the dog sees his world. And the last part of it is self.
Susy (33:28)
And that's the individual characteristics of a dog. We all know that dogs are breed bre are herd ex yeah. Spit it out. Dogs are pack animals and they all kind of have a different role in the pack. And
Susy (33:42)
Each individual dog within the roll in the pack has an individual personality. Some of them are bold. This dog behind me has horrible separation anxiety. they all have different individual personalities, just like people do. Within their other legs, the other parts of the stool. I consider it at the think of it like a stool, and there's four legs to the stool. And if one of the legs is not sturdy, then the stool's gonna potentially fall over. Works better with three legs on a stool, but you can
Susy (34:11)
Can still get the idea.
Barbara (34:13)
Ha ha ha
Susy (34:16)
So always look for hidden pain because that's oftentimes why a dog will react the way they do when we're moving them around like posable action figures like we do on the table. Pain is a big thing that will cause them to be difficult on the grooming table and it's not their fault. We gotta look for that stuff. Especially if there's been a change. If something has changed in the way the dog reacts, then you know, maybe look for some pain there.
Barbara (34:46)
Aging
Susy (34:48)
Aging, yep, the age that they are. Like for instance, there's a puppy stage, a teenager stage, where the dogs have super sort of tension spans and they will not necessarily react the way they're gonna react later. I keep hoping this one's gonna grow out of the separation anxiety because she's just right at that age where she's fighting everything.
Susy (35:11)
Senior dogs have physical stamina limits. Look at the individual. Figure out who they are and why they're having a difficult time and assess their health and their stamina and their the reasons like bad teeth. Bad teeth are huge. The dog has bad teeth, you can't work around the face, they get very defensive. Just look for this stuff. So I guess the biggest takeaway is is this discomfort or is it
Susy (35:40)
just who the dog is and then just make some adjustments for it. And yeah, that's the legs thing. So she's written books. There are videos on YouTube about this. It's the book, get to know your dog is fantastic. I think that's what it's called. And when a dog struggles on your table, don't ask how to stop the behavior.
Susy (36:01)
Ask which part of the legs formula is maybe having a problem, or maybe multiple parts. Is it an overwhelming situation? Is it the first time they're in the salon? Is it genetics? Is there a physical issue? These are all great places to start when your compassion goes up, your stress goes down, and the grooming is safer. All right.
Barbara (36:24)
Amen.
Susy (36:24)
Let's hear
Susy (36:25)
yes, woo! Absolutely. All right, let's hear from show season and then we're gonna move on to our classroom where we're gonna learn about quats and polyquats.
Barbara (37:34)
Well, thank you, Susie, I think. So I want to talk today about quaternary ammonium compounds, aka quads, and the polymeric compound component of that, polyquads. So quads are engineered from
Barbara (38:02)
A basic nitrogen backbone and starting place, and a tertiary amine, where there are like three contact points, and to make that quadernized is to make it cationic.
Barbara (38:28)
Give it a like a big magnet right in the middle of it that will cling to hair, skin, whatever. It will adhere substantively. So it has great substantivity. So in order to get even evenly applied conditioning ingredients.
Barbara (38:56)
in a liquid shampoo or conditioner, the quaternization really helps equalize the whole process so that you're getting evenly distributed into the fur coat or the skin or whatever you're treating. And a lot of the the quads and polyquats
Barbara (39:24)
came first from fabric softeners. So this was just a it was kind of an obvious hop, skip and a jump where people said, Wow, this makes my my laundry so soft and nice, why don't we use it on my hair? Yeah, you know, and I don't know
Susy (39:52)
It's a natural
Susy (39:53)
connection. Yes.
Barbara (39:54)
Have you ever conditioned a dog hair with fabric softener?
Susy (40:03)
Not intentionally, but I have sprayed it on a dog by accident. It worked great.
Barbara (40:09)
I I have
Barbara (40:10)
actually used it in a pinch.
Susy (40:15)
huh.
Barbara (40:16)
And and nothing horrible happened. The coat didn't fall out. The didn't nothing bad happened. It it kind of worked. and
Susy (40:29)
No itching?
Barbara (40:30)
and and that was before I understood that some of these conditioning ingredients started out as fabric softeners. and so they've been brought into
Barbara (40:45)
shampoos and conditioners and i into into shampoos especially because the quadernization the cationic magnet attracted molecules got it so it's so hard the language is so hard
Barbara (41:15)
And I'm simplifying it. So that's part of what's happening is that I I got complicated notes, but I'm trying to put it into terms that y'all gonna understand or gonna wanna hear because quads and polyquats are very highly chemically engineered. They are engineered in their manufacture. So they're they're they're kind of like
Barbara (41:41)
built while they're being made, you know, and they're in the it's a wide open
Barbara (41:50)
area for innovation and it's a huge quads and polyquads is a huge family of vaguely related I mean the only really relationship between one quad and another quat is that they're they're cationic.
Barbara (42:16)
They are have a positive little magnet that right down to the it hairs quickly to hair on skin. So it's a giant category and unfortunately there's a lot that goes unstated, so they are named often by just numbers,
Barbara (42:42)
especially the polyquads. Quad, simple quads, have names with O N I U in them. Onium. So cetrimonium chloride is a simple one. And I discovered something last month when I was working on my
Barbara (43:09)
presentation for the Kansas City groomers and that's that cetrimonium chloride, which we find here, there and everywhere, is harsh.
Barbara (43:22)
It has a harshness score, it's harsh on protein. It has a harshness score up there with sodium laurel sulfate and sodium laurel sulfate. It's just a it's about number five down, you know. it has potential for come some kind of harshness. So you often find it
Barbara (43:46)
with other ingredients that buffer that ability so that it's not gonna like go too far and and but quats and poet butts are not good if they get in the eyes because those little magnets that make them quads, they will like magnet
Barbara (44:12)
attached to the eye tissue there and really cause problems. So try not to get can you know, like you think you're out of the woods when you get when you rinse off the shampoo and you start with the conditioner.
Susy (44:26)
Right.
Barbara (44:27)
But the truth is conditioners can burn the eyes just as much as shampoos. and they're even harder to rinse off because the whole feature
Barbara (44:42)
of quaternization is to adhere and not be rinsed off. And the
Susy (44:49)
Right.
Barbara (44:50)
and the positive charge is permanent. There's n it's there for good, for good for life. the difference between quads and polyquats is simply that the quads have a single magnet or a single
Barbara (45:11)
point of cationization and the polyquots have several spots. So the polyquots are like have magnets down their tail and the quads have just like one magnet right in the middle of the whole thing. And so polyquads can be more substantive
Barbara (45:38)
to hair and likewise they can
Barbara (45:44)
Well, can they be harder to to get rid of once you get in the coat? Not necessarily because the lasting effect of the polyquads depends a lot on other features of the molecule. What what's in the body, the the concentration,
Barbara (46:13)
and other distinctions. So in it theoretically can stay attached longer and have buildup happen, but not necessarily always. a polymer is easily washed off with an anionic
Barbara (46:37)
shampoo the next time. Now I have been asking for about five years. I've been anytime I get someone that is like in the like chemically chemically educated I say, how long will a quad or a polyquot stay substantive to the hair when it's not washed again?
Barbara (47:02)
the next day or the next week, because that's the biggest difference between how we shampoo human hair and how we shampoo the dog fur is the interval in between shampoos. Well the truth is the reason that I haven't been able to get an answer is because that question has not been answered. Susie
Barbara (47:30)
It has not been studied. The longevity of a cationic connection has not been studied because always they've just done human hair. And it's just goes to show you that there's not a great deal of priority.
Barbara (47:57)
for testing all of the nuances of animal cosmetics or cosmetic ingredients that are used that are taken from human products and applied to animal products. But we do know that they are easily removed with the next shampoo or two, right?
Susy (48:26)
Yeah, okay.
Barbara (48:26)
Basic.
Susy (48:28)
So it's interesting the conditioning cling is so much more powerful than the cleaning cling, you know, that that the magnet is so powerful as a conditioner. But it makes sense since that's the act of conditioning. But you're right. Some people don't get their dogs done
Susy (48:47)
until every eight weeks. So the chances that a leave in conditioner and hair rubbing back and forth as the dog moves around, that it's still there two months later is probably not still there two months later.
Barbara (48:59)
Yeah, it's
Barbara (49:00)
not y you know, it it deteriorates, for sure. And you're right, the movement of hair against hair is a way more important than we know. And and and that's
Susy (49:14)
I suspect so.
Barbara (49:16)
one reason why that's one reason why dogs get
Susy (49:22)
Mm.
Barbara (49:26)
so easily matted because their hair is in is kind of in in constant movement and it's especially leg hair good point Susie.
Barbara (49:41)
So polyquests can be highly sensitive because the polymer chains offer multiple sites for interaction with hair, but removability varies enormously with polymer structure, charge density, molecular weight, formulation, and the cleansing system.
Barbara (50:08)
Polymers and polyquots have been the
Barbara (50:14)
real breakthrough ingredient in two-in-one shampoos or so-called conditioning shampoos.
Barbara (50:28)
polyquiles are not necessarily harder to remove, but they can be, and they can cause more buildup. but it the harder to remove is not a rule. It's not set in stone. they have more magnets, but
Barbara (50:50)
the overall sub sensitivity to the hair, the contact with the hair, some of those magnets stay in the water.
Barbara (51:02)
they're getting restless, honey. I'm I'm gonna have to cut this short. So
Susy (51:08)
Okay. Yeah, you get tell us what you want us to know.
Barbara (51:12)
Well, I want you to know about Quaternum ninety eight. And Quaternum ninety eight see, you you wouldn't know by the name.
Barbara (51:26)
The numbers for quads and polyquats have nothing to do with the properties of those ingredients. They are simply the number in the order in which they were registered as ingredients by the manufacturer.
Barbara (51:50)
Quaternum ninety-eight is a advanced quad called an ester quat. You know, ethers, ethers, and
Susy (52:02)
Yes.
Barbara (52:03)
esters. This is an ester quat are a further chemistry evolution. They're more planet-friendly than plain quads. They are less toxic to the environment and less of a concern in wastewater. In other words,
Barbara (52:20)
Esterquads are more green, they're greener. But how do we know? There's no there's no way, you know, like you can only learn that if it's marketed to you, you know what I mean? We only learn about the features of ingredients by what the labels and the salesmen say. And
Susy (52:47)
Very true.
Barbara (52:49)
And the the truth is that
Barbara (52:52)
sales people at the trade show do not have as much education as you might think.
Susy (53:03)
As we do.
Barbara (53:04)
As we do, yeah. As I do. what they have is great sales ability.
Barbara (53:13)
So they are chosen to be representatives of the company at trade shows because they can sell shit, not because they know about them or what's going
Susy (53:27)
Very true.
Barbara (53:27)
on. And they generally either will like answer your question in a way that avoids the question.
Barbara (53:40)
Or they'll make shit up.
Susy (53:45)
Right. I know.
Barbara (53:46)
You know, and they
Barbara (53:47)
do they do make stuff up just to cover their own butts because they don't don't know. so quad quaternum ninety-eight is a good hair conditioning. also a skin conditioner.
Barbara (54:11)
It's an emollient and it just has a number of fabulous properties.
Barbara (54:24)
So we talked about cetrimonium chloride, that it's an anesthetic. First of all
Barbara (54:32)
All quats and polyquats are great anti static.
Barbara (54:37)
ingredients because they will neutralize the negative charge of dirty and damaged hair. The more damaged the hair cuticle, the more negative its charge. And
Barbara (54:58)
These ingredients neutralize that. the positive magnet neutralizes the negative charge of the hair and you have no static cling and you have a less likelihood of mat and stuff like that.
Susy (55:20)
Friction.
Barbara (55:22)
so here's another one.
Barbara (55:26)
Sterile conium chloride. This is a cation cationic conditioning ingredient, also used as fabric softener. we talked about MADEX. It's got a silicone quaternion sixteen. Of course, it's got silicone, and silicone is the most
Barbara (55:50)
fun stuff for chemists to manipulate and engineer because silicone has a backbone that has many places where you can add other molecules and create, you know, like really exotic combinations. You can even make a green silicone, you can attach
Barbara (56:17)
vegetable protein to your silicone and have a green silicone. we know I love silicones. the I
Susy (56:26)
We do. Actually we at the podcast love silicones.
Barbara (56:31)
wanted to tell you about I've mentioned this one before. and it's called polyquaturnium one hundred and ten. So one hundred and ten, that's getting up there, right? Considering that
Barbara (56:48)
We're looking at polyquaternum 10 is the most often found, in shampoos, because of its anti-static behavior. Polyquaternum 10 is an unique ingredient. it's a hyperbranched polymer used in hair care products.
Barbara (57:13)
To enhance volume and provide conditioning benefits. So it's found in iGroom Extreme Volume Conditioner. This is what it does. It's known for its ability to boost hair volume, increase elasticity, and improve manageability.
Barbara (57:37)
It works through a unique mechanism involving polymer deposition and structural transformations.
Barbara (57:49)
you made me laugh because you left me. Yeah, I know. Well but we gotta say deposition, it's deposited, okay? Deposition
Susy (58:01)
Yes, yes.
Barbara (58:03)
is a big concept in ingredients and shampoos and conditioners because that's how things get delivered
Barbara (58:15)
the first silicone
Barbara (58:18)
used silicone oil, plain dimethicone, was used in shampoos and it would simply fall out as the rest of the shampoo was rinsed off then the silicone oil would break the bubbles would break and the silicone oil would
Barbara (58:43)
fall down onto the hair and provide some conditioning. That's why we didn't love the original conditioning shampoos. They were kind of hit or miss. But now the deposition has been engineered so that it actually stays in place until the very end and then
Barbara (59:12)
It goes right to the hair with the polymers, many magnets, and
Susy (59:21)
It's so cool.
Barbara (59:22)
Well paternum 110
Barbara (59:24)
does it has a structural transformation during drying. It's deposited as a lamellar, you know, as a lasagna. I just used the analogy a lasagna phase and it transforms to a hexagonal phase.
Barbara (59:46)
while drying and that pushes the hair out one strand from another. It's a hexagon
Susy (59:51)
Wow.
Barbara (59:52)
it goes from here to this hexagonal thing and those make air pockets in between the hairs and the hair stands out more and you got max volume. Isn't that cool? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Susy (01:00:07)
Better living through science. Cool.
Barbara (01:00:12)
Better living through science. So there you go. And also what's important about polyquaternum one ten is that it's a microbiome friendly ingredient, yay for that, huh? So I'm
Susy (01:00:29)
Yay.
Barbara (01:00:30)
gonna quit there while I'm ahead. and
Susy (01:00:33)
Sounds good.
Barbara (01:00:36)
give you a little taste of what's going on.
Barbara (01:00:39)
I think that we need to get comfortable with these more sophisticated polymer ingredients because they're the future. You know, the future isn't just more botanicals, more from nature, because nature can only support a certain amount of
Barbara (01:01:07)
shampoos is a n not gonna be able to shampoo the planet with all natural, all truly natural derived things. So we've gotta find ways to engineer. We we need to get comfy with more complex, nuanced, innovative ingredients and welcome
Susy (01:01:33)
I like it.
Barbara (01:01:34)
to the party.
Susy (01:01:36)
Ha ha. All right.
Barbara (01:01:36)
Because
Susy (01:01:37)
Well I just noticed what time it is. I mean you were noticing what time it was, but I just noticed that I have a dog in twenty minutes and I better get the heck outta here.
Barbara (01:01:43)
Yeah. An hour, I says we've been
Barbara (01:01:46)
going. We've been yakking for an hour and fourteen minutes and thirty two seconds. Yikes.
Susy (01:01:52)
Yes, and
Susy (01:01:52)
a little and a little longer that beforehand. So hey, thanks for being here, everybody. Remember, consider joining Patreon and supporting the show that way. Also, you can donate on the website and remember to support our sponsors, Best Shot Show Season, Stasco, Groomore, and Precision Sharp and happy grooming, everyone. See you next time on the groom pod. Bye!
Barbara (01:02:15)
Take care of yourselves cause we need you. Bye.